We Create Change - WaiFung Tsang - Clinical Psychologist & Musician #250

Empowering Creativity through Diverse Experiences with WaiFung Tsang

In this episode, host Savia Rocks welcomes WaiFung Tsang, a clinical psychologist, researcher, and musician, to the Us People Podcast. Together, they discuss the intersection of psychology, plant medicine, and mental health.

WaiFung shares his journey from Hong Kong to the UK, the challenges of bridging cultural gaps, and his work in holistic healing through ayahuasca. They delve into the complexities of trauma, PTSD, and the importance of balancing passion with financial stability.

The episode also explores WaiFung's insights on resilience and healing, enriched by indigenous practices and his deep connection to nature and music.

00:00 Welcome to Season Five!
01:12 Introducing Our Guest: WaiFung Tsang
02:07 WaiFung's Journey: From Hong Kong to the UK
04:03 The Power of Plant Medicine
08:14 Balancing Passion and Practicality
24:51 The Holistic Approach to Psychology
30:46 Understanding PTSD and Its Symptoms
34:59 Therapeutic Approaches to PTSD
37:57 Military PTSD and Indigenous Treatments
41:18 Music and Personal Reflections
42:52 Advice and Wisdom from Loved Ones
47:37 Desert Island Choices
51:33 Legacy and Final Thoughts
54:20 Closing Remarks and Gratitude

Thank you so much WaiFung for showing us, no matter the cost we find strength in doing what we love to make a change.

Website: https://www.onaya.io/
Linkedin:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/waifung-tsang-5a38732a7/?originalSubdomain=uk

Standing out can be hard but making a difference with you passion, can change the world - Savia Rocks

Transcript

We Create Change - WaiFung Tsang - Clinical Psychologist & Musician #250

[00:00:00] Savia Rocks: Hey guys, we made it to season five of the Us People podcast. I'm your host Savia rocks. And in this season, we aim to empower and embrace creativity through diversity, as we dive into the fascinating stories and experiences of a diverse range of individuals. Highlighting their unique perspectives and creative endeavours from artists and entrepreneurs to innovators and activists, we celebrate the power of diversity in driving creativity and fostering positive change.

[00:00:32] Join us as we engage in thought provoking conversations like 

[00:00:37] Tony DaDa: I made myself intentionally homeless in pursuit of my purpose. 

[00:00:41] Jay Harris: We're aware that. A lot of people want to present and they, and they were in my position and what's worse, they weren't a white male, which is a joke that that's even still a thing.

[00:00:49] I 

[00:00:49] Mel: think my family never, ever say you can't do something. So full of support, full of support for whatever dream. If I said tomorrow when I fly to the moon, they'll probably say, I wish you all the best Mel. 

[00:00:59] Savia Rocks: So [00:01:00] guys, I just want to say thank you for supporting the Us People podcast for the past five years.

[00:01:06] And we look forward to sharing another new theme song. With you, let's 

[00:01:12] WaiFung Tsang: go. Hello, everyone. I'm WaiFung Tsang. I am a clinical psychologist, uh, co founded ONAYA, a research organization looking into indigenous uses of ayahuasca, and also a musician. Absolutely humbled to be invited to speak to Savio Rocks at Us People Podcast with Savio Rocks.

[00:01:33] Hey 

[00:01:34] Savia Rocks: guys, and welcome to another episode of the ask people podcast. I'm your host Savia Rocks and today I'm humbled to have Weifang here with me, who is a clinical psychologist and also a beautiful musician, because I, when I was doing my research, I always loved to know more about. What a person does and how they do it and why they do it.

[00:01:55] So I want to welcome you on the ask people podcast show. And thank you so [00:02:00] much for connecting with me today. 

[00:02:02] WaiFung Tsang: Thank you so much, Savia. Yeah. Honoured to be here. Thank you for having me. 

[00:02:07] Savia Rocks: Oh, awesome. So my first question for you is, could you tell me a bit about yourself and where you grew up and how that influenced you to be the person who you are today?

[00:02:21] WaiFung Tsang: Yes. Yeah, that's a good good start. Um, I'm from Hong Kong. Uh, first and foremost, and that really defines me a lot. I think a big part of my identity. I'm very proud of being from Hong Kong, born and bred. And then, yeah, came over to UK for education, essentially, uh, with my family. And, um, I kind of spent half my life in Hong Kong and UK kind of bouncing around.

[00:02:53] So I'm a bit, yeah, a bit of both. And I, and I really find that is, [00:03:00] you know, kind of this, when I was growing up and You know, I was really loving Hong Kong or loving language, the Cantonese and just like, like watching anime growing up and all that stuff. And then suddenly I moved to a place where no one knew any of that in the language.

[00:03:17] I didn't really speak at all because my, I came with my family and then, yeah, started learning all of the kind of British ways of being. And then Hong Kong kind of just really became like a dream. Um, and I didn't fit in here. And then I went back to Hong Kong. When I was like 20 something. Um, and then at that time.

[00:03:42] Yeah, kind of reclaimed my name, reclaimed my culture and then again didn't really fit in over there either Because I'm like a bit white now and then that's become the story of my life really finding kind of commonalities and bridges between Cultures and that's [00:04:00] led me a lot to the work that I do now.

[00:04:03] I think where we always talk about Kind of like bridging of worlds, uh, right, like right now I do a lot of, I do a lot of, um, research, uh, psychological research into the therapeutic benefits of ayahuasca, um, and psychedelics, specializing in kind of indigenous uses of ayahuasca, which again, like speaks a lot to my kind of more Asian core of herbalism and working with plants.

[00:04:31] Um, and then, um, Bringing that kind of like Western lens of therapy and well being and mental health and physical health and holistically where tradition meets kind of like science. That's, that's a big part of what I'm kind of, yeah. All of my work now and, uh, this company that I'm, uh, this organization that I co founded called Onaya.

[00:04:55] Yeah. That's kind of like our motto. 

[00:04:58] Savia Rocks: No, I love it. That sounds [00:05:00] really, really cool. And even the way that finding different methods, I like the natural methods, like my grandmother, she always had a natural method to healing something. Whereas you come to London, and everything is kind of medication. 

[00:05:14] WaiFung Tsang: Yeah. 

[00:05:23] Savia Rocks: I'm sure we can go into the whole political side of it, but that would take forever.

[00:05:28] That's a whole nother podcast. I suppose. But for me, I think I just love the side of it where healing is a natural based thing and it's a beautiful thing to have. So my next question for you is, can you define? yourself as a person, but also who do you see when you look in the mirror? But on the flip side of that question, has there ever been a time where you have looked in the mirror and not recognized the person staring back at you?

[00:05:53] How did you manage to go, wow, like he's thinking, how did you manage to go for a person? [00:06:00] That you felt may not have had the purpose that you wanted to, to becoming the person that you feel resonated with what you do and what you love. Mmm. 

[00:06:11] WaiFung Tsang: Oh, that's such a beautiful question, man. Thank you for, thank you for coming up with that.

[00:06:16] Yeah. Yeah. It's always such a journey, isn't it? It's always such a process. Which I think everyone Regardless of, you know, where they are on that journey, it's on that same journey of kind of finding that, finding that thing they resonate with that feels, makes them feel connected to the wider self, the big, you know, the collective and yeah, I've had quite a few, yeah, a few, a few incidents is going to come to mind, like crisis, crisis points, um, wow.

[00:06:55] I've just been like, yeah. I guess [00:07:00] like going astray, feeling like I've gone down the wrong path or not really knowing what I'm doing, uh, probably intoxicated, um, in many ways. And everyone worried about me made some really kind of like stupid decisions. Um, almost kind of messed everything up. Um, and yeah, I think a lot of what's kind of like driven me to find Purpose or find a thing that I really want to do is really knowing what it was really like without it and that emptiness that came with it, the self destructiveness and, uh, and uh, yeah, the self sabotaging, the worry, the concern of everyone that you're connected with.

[00:07:58] Um, [00:08:00] and, uh, and there's only really one. You find that something, and you realize, okay, it's not just, it's not just you anymore. It's not just you. It's not just about you. Um, well, getting married was a big one for me. Yeah, my, my wife is definitely a really big one. I didn't actually recognize it myself for a long time that, uh, You know, until my family kind of, my sister kind of came in and was like, yeah, have you noticed that since you got married, you've completely shifted?

[00:08:32] And I'm like, Oh yeah, cause I'm so in it. You don't really know. Um, but yeah, it became something that, you know, I can't just mess around. I can't just fuck around anymore because there's something bigger than myself I need to, I need to do. And another one really big shift as well, like more recent was, uh, the whole kind of the whole like political unrest in Hong Kong that happened, like with China [00:09:00] coming in, there was, you know, that, that, that was a really, Big kind of shock to my system as well And I was kind of stuck here watching all of my friends and family kind of suffer over there as well And I feeling really helpless in that matter and like oh my god, what can I do?

[00:09:16] What can I do? You know like? um and that Led me a lot to I guess like, seeing all the trauma in the world, in myself, but also the people that I, that I, I love, that people connect to, that I feel I resonate with, has brought me to this mission of like, okay, heal. This is what I, this is what I can, you know, what I can contribute to, like the idea of like, okay.

[00:09:45] I want to help. How do I help? Okay. Psychology. I can try and help with psychology. Okay. What else do I have? Like music or plant medicine. Okay. These things, you know, like I want to be as efficient as I can in the way that I'm helping. So I [00:10:00] keep training in Western terms and kind of like shamanic terms and just like really go down this path of integrating these things because there's a lot of shit going on in the world.

[00:10:10] It needs to be a process of healing that kind of like that, that. That, that ensues from that situation. So I guess, uh, Yeah, when I found that path, it felt like something a lot more sustainable. Okay. This is, this is something that I feel a lot of meaning from despite the, despite the kind of peaks and valleys.

[00:10:38] Um, and, I don't know, there's a lot of challenges along the way, but then I still kind of get up and I'm like, yeah, this is sick. This is, this is, This is clearly amazing. Um, and now I just keep doing that thing. No, I 

[00:10:54] Savia Rocks: love the way you broke it down. It's just, it's [00:11:00] simple. If it resonates with your soul, if you get up in the morning and you're like, yes, this is something that I want to do.

[00:11:06] It's funny because when I was interviewing a few other people, they've always said to me that A lot of the time when they, some people have a nine to five, for example, but their nine to five isn't necessarily resonating with their soul and they find it actually quite soul destroying. Although, yes, you're making a wage, which is fine, which is good.

[00:11:30] It's good to try and find something makes you feel like you have that abundant purpose to help people. And for millions of people, it's really hard to find that or even want to, because there's things, there might be barriers in the way, for example, they may feel like it's barriers. I'm not going to say it like that.

[00:11:51] They feel in themselves because of fear. That it's a barrier. 

[00:11:58] WaiFung Tsang: Yeah. [00:12:00] Oh, yeah. Definitely. And it's your time, isn't it? It's your contribution. It's your life. Like, yeah. And there also needs to be a balance there. Well, I'm thinking kind of like. I've been recently having some conversations with colleagues who went down a much more kind of like conventional psychology kind of like route maybe Working in the NHS or something and really no, I still do kind of like clinical work like that Um, but when I tell them about kind of the stuff that I get up to and, you 

[00:12:42] Savia Rocks: know, 

[00:12:43] WaiFung Tsang: doing doing this research, they're always kind of, Oh my God, that's so amazing, you know, or, or they're like, you know, you know, complaining about the state of the NHS and like the general lack of resources and how it's really crazy and, or it's just feeling really unethical in the [00:13:00] way that they work, working on medications and, you know, Methods and modalities that they don't believe in and you know all of the politics that kind of like goes inside health that's been Become this whole thing that gets capitalized on.

[00:13:14] Um 

[00:13:15] Savia Rocks: massively 

[00:13:16] WaiFung Tsang: and then And then I also, there is a sense of envy in me also in that kind of like, oh, you know, I do love what I do, obviously, but I am so broke sometimes. There's just not enough money going into this kind of stuff. So there needs to be some kind of like halfway there where the person who's doing the thing that they love can also get by and like have different revenue streams and stuff like that, I guess.

[00:13:44] But. Um, so yeah, my, cause, cause recently I actually started going back to clinical work a little bit with some of my time, um, just to be able to make ends meet. I'm thinking about starting a family and that kind of stuff. Right. Um, and I want to be able to provide, you know, all [00:14:00] about gender equality, but like, there's something in me as a man where I'm like, Oh, I really want to be able to, you know, look after my family.

[00:14:07] Yeah. Um, And yeah, not be that really busy, absent, kind of like broke dad who's just like can't, who's always hustling and just never around for the child. You know, like I had that, I had that glimpse show up in my mind. I was like, okay, no, but like, as much as I love what I do, I'm, you know, kind of go back to doing some clinical work just to kind of like make ends meet a bit more.

[00:14:30] Um, And I think, yeah, because I spoke to my sister more recently and she's very, uh, she's, she, she gave me that warning actually, you know, cause I, for such a long time, I was like, I don't worry about money, you know, I don't, I don't care about money, you know? And, you know, I feel like people can be quite mature, but financially immature, you know what I mean?

[00:14:50] Very struggled to assign that value to the paper, you know? Um, and then, yeah. And then only recently I'm like, okay, I need to, I need to. [00:15:00] Do things that make also business sense. Um, and then my sister was like, careful, yeah, yeah, you do, you got to do it, you got to do it. But, you know, it's a whole kind of black hole in and of itself.

[00:15:11] And then it leads to, you know, the, the many people, the majority of the people that you spoke, you spoke about there where, you know, it's hard to, uh, it's hard to, you know, do the thing, believe in the thing, even though it's, but it's paying a wage and then you're like stuck in this loop of 

[00:15:29] Savia Rocks: cycle. 

[00:15:31] WaiFung Tsang: Yeah. 

[00:15:31] Savia Rocks: It's, it's a mad, it's a crazy cycle to be in.

[00:15:34] But one of the things I will say to you is, if somebody else can do it, you can do it too. I always say that to people, you're just doing it in a different way. And even though, and it's funny when things in your life are happening, and I mean, you feel like everything is being thrown at you from every single direction.

[00:15:56] And I understand what you mean when you say you want to be, you know, a dad [00:16:00] that spends time with their family. You want to be, you know, financially okay where you are, or even more than that. And you deserve it. Because you work hard for it. It's true. I, I don't sugar coat these things. Sometimes in life, you see someone with a passion, and they deserve to have everything.

[00:16:17] That they desire and need for their family. All it takes is one chance. All it takes is one opportunity for you to receive that. And it's there. I always say to people, don't focus on the door that is closed, but focus on the many doors and windows that are opening that you can climb through. But us as humans, I feel that sometimes we have that tendency when an opportunity closes on us, our mindset kind of focuses on on that for some reason.

[00:16:49] And I think the emotional attachment to the disappointment that has happened rather than seeing the abundance of all the doors that are opening. But it's hard. [00:17:00] It's hard to have that mental. balance. And I'm sure we'll talk about mental health as well. It's hard for us to have that balance as well to be able to do that.

[00:17:07] So 

[00:17:08] WaiFung Tsang: I love that. Yeah. That's really been a big crux of my learning. Uh, when training with plant medicines as well is to really kind of. It's this, it's this journey of honing and fine tuning that intuition to find the doors that are open and the events that kind of lead up to it and being able to shift and not kind of like, if something is being met with resistance and against that kind of universal Rhythm of, of, of flow, right?

[00:17:41] Kind of in, uh, in, in Taoism, they talk about this kind of, yeah, this philosophy of flow, right? And if something it's like an effortless doing, if something's being met with like a lot of resistance to change, change directions, it's like read the signs, you're like, is unfolding in a way, you know, it doesn't, [00:18:00] you know.

[00:18:01] Even if some things are hard to do, but then it is, you know, the, the things that are happening in life is paving a way for that thing to do, just walk. And I have kind of strong faith in, in that. Um, and it's led me, it's worked out so fast. so . Yeah. I'm just gonna keep doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Thoughts? 

[00:18:24] Savia Rocks: I would love to know more about.

[00:18:26] What you do in the terms of plant medicine and because there's a lot of people that actually don't understand But it's an at all because they're so used to the Western world and how the Western world runs and does things if you would like to share I would love for you to be able to share what you do and How you do it as your profession in your way?

[00:18:49] WaiFung Tsang: Mm hmm. Yeah, and there are so many ways as well, you know But happy to share mine, I think Like, [00:19:00] it, yeah, it, herbalism and plant medicines, you know, can be quite prescriptive, um, and it has been used in that way for a long time, and especially with this whole, you know, Renaissance of psychedelic research, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of unethical stuff happening in the space Right, there's a lot of in a big farmer wants a big wants a part of it you know, they're trying to isolate these kind of chemicals the psilocybin the DMT and trying to Turn it into a pill and pharma wasco and all of this stuff, right?

[00:19:38] Um, and I guess what really draws me to plant medicine is Also as a psychologist, like a big part of it is the culture, is the ritual, is the ceremony, is the connection with the plant. Yes. Beyond the actual psychedelic itself, and [00:20:00] I guess like even I specialize in ayahuasca and like ayahuasca is so interesting because it has such a rich history of use and communal use and ceremonial use compared to other psychedelics.

[00:20:14] And that kind of like, I guess, like the collective tradition, hundreds, if not thousands of years, people have been using this thing, um, have, you know, when people talk about ayahuasca, they, they, they, they don't just think of the plant. They don't just think of the tea is, is the ceremony. Is that connection?

[00:20:32] Is that the etters is how you, um, is, It's the echoes, it's the songs, it's the kind of like your connection to nature, the connection to kind of biopsychosocial kind of spiritual is a very holistic kind of process. Um, so when I think of kind of plant medicines, you know, like I think a lot about the, I guess like the intuitive [00:21:00] nature of it.

[00:21:01] Um, and I think a lot about kind of like the energetic nature of it and how kind of plants kind of communicate, uh, I guess with us. Um, and yeah, I'm, I'm like, as I've been doing this research around where I learn like the language to communicate these very kind of abstract kind of concepts. And essentially it's, it's like a process of learning how plants kind of are, and Picking up some of the sensitivities along the way in being with the plant.

[00:21:44] So one way I like that helps me kind of conceptualize it, you know, how like You know how like when you spend loads of time with anything you kind of just become that thing You kind of assimilate with that thing like if it's my body My wife or my coworker or my Facebook or whatever, you know, I'm just like, [00:22:00] you know, you finish each other's sentences, even animals, right?

[00:22:02] You kind of, you, you pick up each other's, uh, emotional states and imitate people's, each other's behaviors. And it's the same with plants. When you spend loads of time with a plant, you know, you really learn the personality, the, the, the strengths and the weaknesses of this very specific plant. And plants are very different, right?

[00:22:19] Some are like. big trees that command the canopy. Others are like, you know, they like the shade. I was like, tough skin. They got spikes. Right. Um, and some plants work better with humans than other plants, which the current errors and the shamans, they call them the master plants or the teacher plants. They were a good way to think of that as maybe like, The poison is versus the medicinal plants, right?

[00:22:41] Some are just better with humans than others. Um, and then when working with plant medicines, it's kind of like building this relationship by spending time with these plants and then allowing that to, I guess, like assimilate with the way you are and then helping you navigate your [00:23:00] life. Um, which, you know, things like ayahuasca can really help someone to do and has traditionally been used to do as such, but then it's definitely, you know, Not a necessary kind of like, like path to, to that sort of, to that sort of way.

[00:23:20] I like, uh, one thing I really also love is kind of like the amount of parallels this kind of Amazonian way of working is to like, like Druidic cultures and, um, Celtic cultures and how they use plant medicines in the UK or kind of like in, in all parts of South America and Asia, um, Yeah, it's, it's pretty, uh, and in Tibetan Buddhism as well, it's very shamanic stuff going on everywhere.

[00:23:46] Savia Rocks: It's pretty cool. 

[00:23:46] WaiFung Tsang: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:23:49] Savia Rocks: It's cool. Cause I practice Buddhism. I love, I love being around nature and plants regardless. So when I wake up five o'clock in the morning and I do meditation, I just feel like in the garden [00:24:00] it's hot or cold. I don't mind. I think there's a stillness. I think within me that allows me to just meditate.

[00:24:09] And just kind of let everything go. And I find that plants heal me, you know, and maybe that's, maybe that's because like you're saying, you're kind of connecting with the plant itself. The plant is connecting with you. So maybe that's, that's a way around it. And I don't know, I'm still learning it and I'm still trying to understand the concepts of plants and do, but they're very powerful.

[00:24:34] You know, you put a tree down, but that tree's root is still going to grow. So I, I always say that to people and it's a bit like life to be quite fair. 

[00:24:42] WaiFung Tsang: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. The taller the tree, the deeper the roots, isn't it? There you go. 

[00:24:49] Savia Rocks: That's exactly how it is. One question that I would love to ask you is, I find that psychology is a gift.

[00:24:59] There's a reason [00:25:00] behind it. So for me, I find psychology a gift because you have to have the patience within you to, first of all, want to help people. You have to have that resilience also to be able to read people's natures and how they're feeling and so on and so forth. But I would love for you to tell me more about psychology from your perspective, from your mind, how it works for you, how you feel that you help people.

[00:25:30] WaiFung Tsang: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:25:40] Such big questions. I'm into it. I'm into it. Yeah. Uh, the, the first thing that came to my mind is like something very, something more holistic. It's the way I love to work, you know, the way I love to, when I say holistic, I mean [00:26:00] quite like multidisciplinary, you know, kind of like one fixed modality, but really kind of like drawing in whatever works to help with this particular person, you know, like psychology and, you know, I've worked alongside psychiatry for a long time.

[00:26:14] And one thing I really appreciate about the two working together is like psychiatry and being very diagnostic and being very prescriptive can be. Quote, very helpful in grouping the sheer amounts of presentations and traits that we see on a large scale to help us start to funnel down what's the best cause of action, right.

[00:26:37] And put it all into this kind of like, it was like a gift box and it's all wrapped up in his bows. And then psychology comes along and just like undoes the bow and then inside each person is very, becomes a very kind of tailored and person centered thing. What's actually going to help. This individual now we've kind of like funneled down to this thing.

[00:26:59] So it's that kind [00:27:00] of top down, bottom up meets in the middle, sort of, sort of way of thinking that I really love about, you know, how psychology sits within our disciplines. Right. Um, so when I think about being holistic and being multidisciplinary, I'm thinking, you know, like. I'm thinking, yeah, what's hereditary.

[00:27:23] What's kind of like what's biological, what's kind of like functional cognitively and neuro cognitively, but also semantically inside your body socially, you know, like, and this is one thing that, you know, I think that's I have a soft spot for the social side because of my collective culture Asian ness, I think, you know, and I often think about things and that sense of identity kind of relationally.

[00:27:49] Um, and then now working more with these kind of like subtleties and, and intuitiveness. Uh, have really kind of brought in like [00:28:00] a spiritual lens to that holistic kind of like vibe. Um, and then underneath all of that, I would have my own kind of niches as well. So like trauma, trauma is a big one for me.

[00:28:13] Yeah. I've just spent a lot of time in those sorts of kind of circles and populations. Um, trauma, addiction and neuro divergence is something that's really kind of like really, um, Yeah, it really draws my attention. Um, and yeah, all the vast amounts of ways that, you know, that the brain can develop and, and present itself and how, you know, you know, what status quos are, what normality is and how it diverges away from that, you know, like as a researcher, that's one thing I really love as well.

[00:28:48] I really love kind of like looking at numbers and looking at the stories behind the numbers. Um, And, uh, when I, yeah, when I think [00:29:00] about, when I think about, you know, it just, it just helps me to conceptualize things when there's on such a kind of like on such a big, bigger scale and wider scale, and then at the same time still appreciate that individual kind of story of that wider number.

[00:29:17] Um, especially in the psychedelic world, uh, that's, yeah. That I, I so rich with that, I feel, you know, like on, on the one hand is showing me, you know, really kind of unheard of, never seen before sort of, um, like improvements or, or, uh, things that we would never really see when it comes to SSRIs, antipsychotics or antidepressants and, you know, the level of sustainability of that improvement.

[00:29:50] Um, you know, obviously there's a lot of, there's a lot of exceptions to, to, to, to, it's not for everyone. I'm definitely. Yeah, for anyone listening, I'm not like an evangelical, [00:30:00] like psychedelic head. And I definitely feel like, you know, you need to know who it's for and who it's not for. There's a lot of risks involved also, but then seeing those sorts of kind of overarching gun headlines and then going down to the individual and actually realizing what they're.

[00:30:16] Going through when they're describing these like, oh my God, I just lived my past life. I've just kind of like, you know, met these entities. I just kind of like went through a whole experience of rebirth and they're crying in front of you. And then they're like, I don't feel like I want to kill myself anymore.

[00:30:33] I love myself, you know, and I'm just like, okay, okay. Now it kind of all brings to life of that kind of, yeah, very holistic kind of approach to it. So, I think. 

[00:30:46] Savia Rocks: No but that's the, that's the one thing about life is that you never know what's around the corner or how we are going to react to something that comes into our life which, which is kind of, there's one question that I do want [00:31:00] to ask you is It's about PTSD.

[00:31:04] There's a lot of people who I know who suffer with PTSD, especially people who've been in the army. That's a huge one. Can you talk to me about mental health and dealing with PTSD? 

[00:31:20] WaiFung Tsang: Um, can you repeat that question just one more time? Just cut out that for a second. Absolutely 

[00:31:26] Savia Rocks: fine. So When it comes to PTSD, there's a lot of people who suffer with it, but in terms of dealing with your mental health issues, for example, how can we understand, first of all, that we have the symptoms of PTSD, but also ways to deal with it?

[00:31:50] WaiFung Tsang: Good question. Yeah. So PTSD post traumatic stress disorder. Um, yeah. Some of the core symptoms that we would [00:32:00] see is this idea of kind of like having flashbacks, um, back to the, back to the experience from before losing a sense of kind of like time within it. And like the experience from a past trauma or very past highly.

[00:32:16] Stressful experience, feels very kind of now, it can even intrude onto your dreams, um, having nightmares, be feeling very kind of irritable, um, very kind of like emotionally dysregulated, maybe in terms of anger, maybe in terms of kind of sadness, becoming very upset, struggling to kind of come back to baseline, for example, being triggered by things that might remind you of things.

[00:32:39] that time as well. Um, if someone was hit by a car, for example, like getting on public transport or, you know, like a car beeping, a loud horns might be very triggering for that people, very sensory aspect of bringing the body back to this very kind of like stressed out moments and not being able [00:33:00] to essentially, Kind of like release the, the stress or process that very difficult experience.

[00:33:08] Right. And it obviously happens on a, on a big continuum. When people get PTSD, we, we see these symptoms and we say, you know, like there's some are just like really clear disorders. And then, you know, when it reaches to a point where it's impacting every part of your life, you know, then, you know, it's very clearly diagnosable PTSD, but then, you know, Our body kind of just keeps the score and holds these kind of memories within it as well, like to varying degrees.

[00:33:36] Um, and it could be kind of more cumulative as well. I think like, yeah, the whole, the whole concept of it has changed a lot where it first came about in, uh, to describe kind of like shell shock. Um, and like during the war and how kind of, you know, Yeah, how kind of being near bombs and stuff, um, can, can lead to that.

[00:33:58] But then now we understand more [00:34:00] about kind of like this big T, little t traumas and how incremental trauma is complex. PTSD could be, when I say incremental, like being in a very toxic relationship. Being abused or neglected as a child, like over a long period of time, race, racism is a massive one, like incrementally over time, being abused, being abused, leading to very complex versions of PTSD, um, where the root causes of it can become a lot more, a lot more complicated to resolve the relationship with that trigger compared to say, like, getting hit by a bus or, or, you know, you know, when, when it's something very kind of like, you know, in interactional, I guess.

[00:34:48] Um, and, uh, yeah, it's, it's debilitating is, is very kind of like, it's very, it's definitely very prevalent within military kind of like personnel. Um, [00:35:00] In therapy, like one, one thing, one thing that I find very interesting, uh, when doing this work between indigenous kind of like plant medicine world of treating trauma and PTSD versus like Western world is they take a very similar approach and there is a process to these things.

[00:35:21] And there's often, you know, you'll find this in most kind of like trauma informed kind of therapeutic. Ways of working is three main kind of stages of working with trauma like this. And the first one is often safety first, right? Establish safety, your grounding strategies, your centering strategies. How can we bring you back to your body?

[00:35:46] How can we help you reclaim your life a little bit so you can actually kind of like function that show up to the therapy show up to the Deep work that you need to do and establishing that safety before kind of diving [00:36:00] deep into the wound itself, right into the triggers and into the memory, we call it the memory work or the reliving work when it comes to trauma focused therapies before hopefully, you know, working with rekindling those relationships with those really difficult, um, triggers and memories.

[00:36:19] And then at the end. bringing you back to light, you know, from the darkness back into your everyday life. How can we fill you back up with goodness so you can then generalize these things to, to your everyday life? And I want one, um, I remembered a really interesting kind of analogy that I used to use is, um, it's kind of like, it's kind of like having like a wardrobe.

[00:36:45] And then when you open the wardrobe and there's like a big duvet that's just been like crammed in there or something like loads of stuff and it's just too big for it and it just all falls out. And then how do you deal with that situation, [00:37:00] right? So what do you do? do in that situation is you kind of like, you clear the space, you, you kind of open the wardrobe, you take the thing out and you fold it, you know, you open it all up and then you fold it and then you put it in an orderly fashion so you can put it back.

[00:37:14] So it becomes more controllable every time you need to, you need to kind of like access this thing. Um, yeah. So yeah, it's a very kind of like similar way of working and indigenous kind of like practices as well. Uh, and, uh, you know, through the process of a few ceremonies, um, for some people more maybe, uh, then there'll be like a ceremony for safety ceremony for kind of clearing and protecting and grounding a ceremony for kind of like deep energetic work.

[00:37:43] And then like towards the end is often like a ceremony for lifting you back up to the canopy of the spirits, filling you with good stuff. And then you can go back onto your way, you know? Um, and yeah, we see that. Yeah. So I do a lot of work with [00:38:00] military, um, uh, PTSD in the jungle, uh, with this charity called heroic hearts project.

[00:38:08] They're like, yeah, they're great. They're like a, a charity based in the U S. who helps people, uh, military veterans with PTSD access alternative treatments when they are treatment resistant themselves. Um, and they've tried many things and they've got PTSD, maybe they've got traumatic brain injury, other kind of, um, conditions acquired from the, from the military, and then they will.

[00:38:35] Come to, uh, drink ayahuasca and go through this treatment, uh, the series of treatments at the research center, the Riosper Research Center, Ayahuasca Foundation, um, where we do the research out in Peru. Um, and yeah, seeing some, seeing some like harrowing stories and some really thus far, like really beautiful results.

[00:38:57] Um, one really interesting thing I might [00:39:00] just add here is, uh, you know, I first went into it thinking. Okay, military personnel with PTSD coming through is, you know, we're, we're here to work with kind of combat trauma, like deployment, trauma, trauma, going out and fighting. Um, but what's actually really surfacing from the ceremonies from anecdotal kind of reports and everyone is basically like, is pretty much all childhood stuff.

[00:39:29] And it's all kind of like neglect and abuse from. parents lack of like close family members, uh, you know, um, and you know, not prevalence wise, actually much less, uh, kind of reports of combat trauma. And actually it's all, it's all stemming from childhood and this whole, um, this whole, this whole journey essentially of like fine, you know, putting themselves [00:40:00] in a position where they find that kind of like camaraderie with their platoons got their kind of brothers and sisters backs dying together on the war field on the battlefield and that sense of camaraderie is like it's really big when we when we see um when we see the veterans kind of in ceremony together, um, Yeah, so I guess that's, you know, that's one thing that I really take away from this kind of like this prevalence of PTSD and propensity to be drawn towards kind of like risky and highly kind of like trauma traumatic kind of incidences of comes from kind of like much earlier on um kind of maladaptive like ways of relating and understanding and regulating and you know it's already kind of this bedding of trauma before it gets to that sort of level so um [00:41:00] yeah look after your kids 

[00:41:04] Savia Rocks: interesting way of how you put that A lot of people might find it actually even difficult to comprehend it, but when they listen to it, they'll take away things from it that will actually help them.

[00:41:16] WaiFung Tsang: I hope so. 

[00:41:17] Savia Rocks: Well, most definitely. Mm-hmm. One, I wanna go on to music because I know that music is also a big part of who you are. So one of my questions that I love to ask is if there was one song that was the soundtrack of your life? What song would you choose and why would you choose that particular song?

[00:41:38] He's cracking up. I 

[00:41:40] WaiFung Tsang: love this. Oh, man. Uh, I, you know, I, I think it would, my answer would have changed like throughout like different stages of my life, but there's always been one track that, that kept telling us, oh, man, let's, this is the song I want at my funeral or something. Do you [00:42:00] know? Uh, a guy called new job as 

[00:42:03] Savia Rocks: new 

[00:42:05] WaiFung Tsang: job as he's a Japanese kind of like producer and he's got this track or lovesick part two.

[00:42:10] I'm 

[00:42:10] Savia Rocks: going to listen to that now. 

[00:42:12] WaiFung Tsang: Yeah, it's a very, it's a very good track. Um, it's very poetic. It's just, it's like the. It's like the godfather of, of lo fi kind of hip hop. He just samples and samples and finds like amazing rappers to come. Um, so yeah, that was, that track first came to mind. Cause it's like, the whole song is like, it's a, it's a beautiful beat.

[00:42:32] And then the whole thing is just, it's a prayer to your, it's a prayer to a partner, but then a prayer to the universe. And this whole thing is, it's all very kind of like circular and, and I really. Yeah. That's the track. People can check it out if they hear this. Yeah. 

[00:42:50] Savia Rocks: No, I love that. That sounds really, really cool.

[00:42:52] So if I was to say to you, people always give us advice, especially at different times of our [00:43:00] life, but has there ever been advice that you have taken and it has helped you tremendously in your life and you always remember it? Who was it from and what did they say to you? I 

[00:43:12] WaiFung Tsang: can't think of a few. Can I give a few?

[00:43:17] Savia Rocks: Of course you can. 

[00:43:17] WaiFung Tsang: Yeah. Okay. So one, one is from my mom and she would always say, she still does it now. It was like, um, I can't remember the exact words. It's like, is, uh, Essentially, it's like, it's okay to fail, but it's not okay not to try, you know, I agree. 

[00:43:43] Savia Rocks: Well done, mommy. 

[00:43:44] WaiFung Tsang: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that. That one's always going to stuck with me.

[00:43:48] And I love that. Um, and it just sets his president. I was like, okay, you know, It might mess up, you know, like you said, it's fine. I might screw this up, but you know, [00:44:00] um, and I have screwed up many times and I'll keep going back to that. I'm trying, like, come on. Um, and then another one, um, this, this one, this one needs a bit more deciphering.

[00:44:16] This one is from my father, but like, uh, there's a very kind of like Asian parent, sort of like. kind of holier than thou sort of thing, now I look back on it, but he always used to say kind of like to serve, not to be served, right, to kind of like to look after others. 

[00:44:33] Savia Rocks: Your parents have wisdom. 

[00:44:36] WaiFung Tsang: My dad has just turned 85 now.

[00:44:39] Yeah, yeah, they were quite, they were matured when they had me, and I'm very grateful for it. Um, yeah, that, that one, that one is, that one is beautiful, and I, and I, it is a lot of humility, um, that comes with that. Um, but then as a side kind of note is also important [00:45:00] to serve yourselves, you know, it's also important to look after yourself and that self love and sometimes the humility can be taken to such a degree that it becomes detrimental to yourself and then you start being like, yeah, so that was something I had to work through.

[00:45:15] Um, and then one is from my maestro, this is my last one. Um, what did he say? He basically said to me, um, uh, yeah, there's something very profound in it. So like I, for a long time I was working with these kind of like master plants, right? These teacher plants. And I was just like, pretty much like revering them as like gods almost being like, Oh my God, like, no, like, Edging on worship being like, Oh my God, like, you know, take me whatever you need.

[00:45:50] I'm like, like a humble servant almost. Right. Um, and then his advice was basically like, you know, [00:46:00] like don't do that, you know, like You like, you are there to be friends, you know, you are there to kind of meet it as peers. Right. And you're, and you know, if you do that, it's going to kick your ass for one.

[00:46:13] And then is that kind of, is that, is that notion of, The divinity in me recognizes the divinity in you, right? And i'm here to kind of like bring myself to a vibration that where I can meet you kind of like head on But I need to also stand my ground and like hold my space to be able to have a working relationship You know, they're not gods.

[00:46:38] They're just you know they're like enlightened beings and they're like beings that have You know have a very kind of expansive sort of I guess like Like way of vibrating and kind of like it's very kind of all encompassing some plants have been more than others. Others are a bit more aggressive but then with yeah, and We [00:47:00] also have the capacity to do that no matter how much we tell ourselves that we are You know, you know lesser or greater than anything else that we interact with actually, you know we all have the potential to Kind of yeah 

[00:47:16] Savia Rocks: I love the way you, you've had some great people in your life in the terms of wisdom and, and, yeah, I just.

[00:47:22] Yeah, yeah, I'm very grateful. No, it's really, really cool to be able to have that. So, I only have a few more for you, but one of my favorite ones is, if I left you on a desert island for 24 hours, 

[00:47:37] WaiFung Tsang: And 

[00:47:39] Savia Rocks: I said, you're only allowed to bring with you an activist, a musician, and a president. Who would you bring and why?

[00:47:47] WaiFung Tsang: An activist, a musician, and a president.

[00:47:52] Oh.

[00:47:57] Hmm. This[00:48:00] 

[00:48:04] is hard. Um. An activist,

[00:48:14] I want to say Ghandi. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, I've just always kind of like, he's just been kind of so extreme, but then so wise, you know, and I've always thought, oh man, he's someone I'd love to kind of just like have a conversation with. He didn't kind of go so hard about it. Yeah, I've only got 24 hours as well, you know, like, I think the choices that I'd choose with this would be like, You know, not necessarily people I would want to like spend excessive amount of time with if it was like a year or something, it might be different.

[00:48:46] Um, and, uh, and then the musician

[00:48:56] also wants to like, cause I'm guessing they're all going to be hanging out together as well. You [00:49:00] know, the dynamic should be nice. Um, a musician would probably be, uh, man. I have been, can it be a friend in a musician? Yeah, the musician can be my friend. He'll be, he'll give me my source of kind of grounding.

[00:49:21] Uh, there's this artist called Face Soul. Um, Face Soul. Uh, yeah. Globe Town Records, really beautiful kind of like healing music. Like I'm just absolute alchemist of his voice. Um, and his name is Faisal. Uh, and uh, Yeah, he's the musician I would love to kind of have by my side in that situation. Um, and then the president probably,

[00:49:55] can it like, when you say president, you mean like us? It could 

[00:49:58] Savia Rocks: be us. It could be [00:50:00] prime minister if you wanted it to be, but 

[00:50:03] WaiFung Tsang: I'm thinking, I'm thinking more emperor. I'm thinking more China. Oh, that's a good one. I'm thinking more like Like, like Ming Dynasty, there was this, there was this guy who, there was this like, this like kid, basically, I think it was like 18 or something.

[00:50:19] And he, and China used to be seven different countries and he came to power and then like united it all. And then became this like guy who, who built terracotta army, the, the, the, the. The great wall of China, all of that stuff, you know, that kid. I was like, dude, I was like, dude, I was always thinking like, what's going through your mind, what is he like as a person, uh, I would love to hang out with him and like, see how Faisal gets on with him.

[00:50:47] That's an 

[00:50:47] Savia Rocks: awesome three actually. Can you imagine 24 hours of all you guys, you'll be talking about anything from war politics, you know, [00:51:00] healing methods. 

[00:51:02] WaiFung Tsang: It'd be the singing songs by the fire. Yeah. 

[00:51:04] Savia Rocks: Literally. You might have a rave at the end of it, but it, it'll be totally fine. , . 

[00:51:10] WaiFung Tsang: I think that, I think that would change the course of history like tremendously if we have had that experience.

[00:51:16] Some of those are very kind of influential people. like, no, 

[00:51:20] Savia Rocks: that that's, I think that's one of the best free choices I've actually heard 

[00:51:25] WaiFung Tsang: on the show. 

[00:51:26] Savia Rocks: I'm glad. No, seriously. I'm glad. No, see, I'll remember that now. See, that's, that's pretty cool. So I've only got two more for you. My second to last one, which resonates, I feel, is about legacy.

[00:51:39] Now people always feel that legacy is a terminology that when we pass or cross over within our life, then people will remember us as this person or what we did, but I believe just from my opinion. I'm glad. Is that legacy is actually an everyday occurrence [00:52:00] reason being because we can say something to somebody and they take that and use it for the rest of their life.

[00:52:09] That for me is leaving a legacy. It doesn't have to be that you're not here anymore. It could just be the softness. Of your words or the resilience of your actions that help a person to understand who they are or something that they're going through, or even a happy moment that they just might need.

[00:52:25] What do you see legacy as? 

[00:52:29] WaiFung Tsang: I love that. I love that. And I think I'm going to agree with you. I'm going to go with you there. Um, I also hold this. Well, firstly, I. I hold a, um, uh, you know, I don't, I don't believe time is linear. Firstly, you know, like I feel like, you know, the past has yet to happen and then the future has already happened and everything just kind of happens in the now.

[00:52:57] So, you know, if [00:53:00] we were going to pass us for it, that's already happened. It's already kind of preordained and whatever. Yeah. I can't remember exactly how the person got there, but it, it, it, it was someone that struck me when they told me and how kind of all of our actions that we do, we should always consider kind of like 13 generations on and like everything we do and how, or how it gets, you know, the ripple effect that kind of was the butterfly effects, right.

[00:53:27] The seemingly kind of insignificant flap of a butterfly's wings, you know, causing that of the world. And it's, it's really kind of like. Yeah, we're all connected in, in, in one way or another, like the tiniest movements, uh, the tiniest, kind of like the intention of our thoughts, man, like for thinking like good things about someone versus not, you know, like don't be a dick, you know, like look at like celebrities and presidents, you know, like having to deal with mass intentions is, is a, is a big thing.

[00:53:57] So that also applies on like a small scale level. [00:54:00] And then if something that subtle can have such a, such an impact, let alone like a high five, you know, and then hopefully that can, you know, lead to some positive change in this person's life and the generations that come after, so, yeah, I'm going to have to go with you there.

[00:54:18] Savia Rocks: Oh, I like that. That's that's totally awesome. So I've got my last one for you is before I have the abundant pleasure to say thank you to you. I would love for people to be able to connect with you. Where would you like them to try and find you or even connect with you ask you any questions about the work of what you do?

[00:54:37] WaiFung Tsang: Oh, yeah, please. A little plug, I guess. Uh, so I'm, you can find me on socials. Uh, I have my, I have my, um, my organization on NAYA, which we, we are focused on, uh, yeah, non profit research, but also education surrounding kind of like indigenous, [00:55:00] uh, uses of ayahuasca and, you know, safety in preparation and integration for these experiences.

[00:55:06] So as O N. A Y a, uh, dot IO, and then. That's our handle, that's our website, that's our email. Yeah, so it's the email is like support at onio. io or you can find me, uh, also on that same email, yfong at onio. io. Um, and then I have my own kind of socials as well, which you'll find off that. And also my band, you know, come check out the music.

[00:55:32] We're on all streaming platforms. Called United Freedom Collective, uh, at United Freedom Collective for the, for the handles, and on Spotify, iTunes, or that jazz SoundCloud. . . 

[00:55:46] Savia Rocks: I like the way you said that. That's cool. At the end. . Just saying No, I like it. It sounds cool. The way you said it, it was like, yeah, . It was kind of like that check out.

[00:55:57] I want to say thank you to you. [00:56:00] Thank you so much for taking your time to come on the podcast for sharing your story, for sharing who you are, for ambiently just being yourself without any filter, because I know how hard that can be at the best of times for all of us and just being able to share what you do with the world.

[00:56:16] So this is me bowing to you and saying, thank you so much for your time. 

[00:56:21] WaiFung Tsang: Arigatou gozaimasu. so much, Sabia. 

[00:56:25] Savia Rocks: You are more than welcome. You are more than welcome, guys. It's 

[00:56:27] WaiFung Tsang: such a pleasure. 

[00:56:28] Savia Rocks: Uh, it has been an absolute pleasure and guys, I want to thank you so much for listening to the ask people podcast, and please remember you can subscribe or choose any platform that you prefer listening to, or you can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or LinkedIn, and you can also donate to the ask people podcast so we can share what we're doing.

[00:56:50] Well, beautiful and inspiring stories with you. Simply go to the ask people podcast website and click on community. You can also catch us every Thursday [00:57:00] at 8 PM UK UK time, where I have a live podcast for you with a guest. You can also catch us every Tuesday. Where I send out a pre recorded interview for you guys to listen to.

[00:57:13] He's like, Ooh, I like that. 

[00:57:14] WaiFung Tsang: He's like, Ooh, yeah, and 

[00:57:19] Savia Rocks: any of our, any of the interview, I should say that we do will be replayed every Wednesday on heart songs live at 9 PM UK time. And this is where I say guys. Thank you so much for listening. Stay happy, stay positive. And as always from me, please continue to be kind 

[00:57:43] WaiFung Tsang: to one [00:58:00] another.

[00:58:04] Savia Rocks: Through the darkness of the night, you'll be guided through the light. Oh yeah, set me free so I can saw and bless 

[00:58:18] WaiFung Tsang: your journey. Oh man, what a beautiful closing. That was beautifully done, man. Very, very nice. Thank you so much. And again, it, yeah, it felt just like, yeah, felt so heart opening to talk to you.

[00:58:32] And so, you know, it's, you really created a beautiful space to allow that kind of vulnerability as well. So, yeah. Very good at this. . Keep doing that.

[00:58:44] if you[00:59:00] 

[00:59:05] spread your wings and let. We're just soaring through this journey, leaving fear far behind. Our hearts are full of courage, you can win if you try. We got red players to you, you'll see the power in us if you try. I fly like I'm Superman. Spread your wings and let them win. I fly like I'm Superman. [01:00:00] Superman.